Databases and Data Forms On Wikidot / Discussion

This is the discussion related to the wiki page Databases and Data Forms On Wikidot.

May I lead your eyes to this blog-entry?

Helmuti_pdorf 12 Jul 2010 07:53

May I lead your eyes to this blog-entry?
Have a look!
Not yet written is the howto : "use data-forms" and the impact of the new coming/existing API with datbases..

Best regards
Helmut

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Service is my success. My webtips:www.blender.org (Open source), Wikidot-Handbook.

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James Kanjo 12 Jul 2010 12:56

Now it is a real database. This is a good showcase of data forms. Well done!

But the database doesn't belong here on the community — the community is a helpdesk. You need to create a project wiki site for itself, and discuss it on the project forums.

A database is something that I'm sure some people may be looking for when they approach the community, so why not create a community “how to create a database” in the community howtos instead. That way it can be a part of the community site, in a clutter-free, non-tangible way.

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λ James Kanjo
_{Blog | Wikidot Expert | λ and Proud
Web Developer | HTML | CSS | JavaScript}

No, this is NOT a project - this is a demonstration & showcase

Helmuti_pdorf 12 Jul 2010 13:08

the community is a helpdesk.

That is true , but not all the truth.. the community is a wiki for all registered users of wikidot to "collaborate" in creataing intelligent articles - showing the advantages of wikidot.
This has nothing to do with a project - but it is to big for a "howto:use a database on wikidot":
I do not argument if this is the right place for "colloaboration" - this is a "community" site and we invite here all registered wikidot members to invest here time and place articles for demonstrfating what is possible for other (potential) wikidot users.
Where should any showcase be stored if not on the community site - were first visitors land and should read all what is possible first ( in showccases)? The statistical figures say - every first visitor is gone with the second link. They will never find in this time the projects site or all the other sites which are notso easy to find anymore ( even by me).

I do not understand why you do not want any longer other contributions here on the community and wish these work moved to sites which cannot be found at the first contact (by tags )

I do not need to create a project far away of our community - I have never done it and will never do it in the future. Projects have nothing to do with first visitors on wikidot & their community.

I mean: finished and working projets should be positioned here as "showcases" and demonstrate the goodies of wikidot.

That way it can be a part of the community site, in a clutter-free, non-tangible way.

another way is not possible?
You are stopping every conttribution on this site with such sentences..

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Service is my success. My webtips:www.blender.org (Open source), Wikidot-Handbook.

Sie können fragen und mitwirken in der deutschsprachigen » User-Gemeinschaft für WikidotNutzer oder
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Last edited on 12 Jul 2010 16:07 by Helmuti_pdorf + Show more

Re: No, this is NOT a project - this is a demonstration & showcase

James Kanjo 12 Jul 2010 22:52

Well in that case, I might “help out” the community by adding a few contributions of my own. I think I might:

• Integrate the polling system, which requires two autonumbered categories, a few includes and few javascript pages
• Integrate a chatroom system, which requires an autonumbered category, a few includes and a few javascript pages
• Integrate a calendar system, which requires an autonumbered category, a few includes and a few javascript pages
• Integrate a multilingual system, which requires an autonumbered category, a few includes and a few javascript pages
• Integrate a family tree system, which requires an autonumbered category, a few includes and a few javascript pages
• Integrate a collaborative story system, which requires an autonumbered category, a few includes and a few javascript pages

Do you not see why this is a bad bad bad idea to STORE projects on the community website?
It clutters the site with non-related projects.

If I integrated all of those “helpful systems” on the community site, we would have hundreds of extra pages for people to look through. Aren't these extra pages going to confuse new users when they browse through the community site? This is why we have a “1 site per project” philosophy, AKA the “Hammer Pattern”. If somebody is looking for a calendar, we just respond to them with a link to the calendar website; the calendar website demonstrates the calendar, and provides instructions on how to create it.

There is nothing wrong with advertising these projects on the community, or creating a howto for them. But the projects themselves need to be stored elsewhere from the community.

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λ James Kanjo
_{Blog | Wikidot Expert | λ and Proud
Web Developer | HTML | CSS | JavaScript}

Last edited on 12 Jul 2010 22:57 by James Kanjo + Show more

RobElliott 12 Jul 2010 16:23

But the database doesn't belong here on the community — the community is a helpdesk

The Community site is just that, a community. I don't view it as just a helpdesk and it is a site which is visited far more than the other, more esoteric, sites like Projects. The community site is whatever the community wants it to be, so Helmuti is quite within his rights to put the info about the database work he has been doing here if he wants to share that with the community. It might not be ready for a howto yet, but that doesn't mean it can't be shared here. I look forward to having a good look at this later today as the work he has done with dataforms, pagepaths, ListPages, backlinks and childpages etc mirrors what I have been doing on a couple of my sites.

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Rob Elliott - Strathpeffer, Scotland - Wikidot first line support & community admin team.
Strathview ~ Wikidot-based wikis, websites & intranets and online database development. For community groups, villages, charities, business and government.

James Kanjo 12 Jul 2010 22:42

The community site is whatever the community wants it to be, so Helmuti is quite within his rights to put the info about the database work he has been doing here if he wants to share that with the community.

Yes, he is within his rights to post info on his database project. And he has posted info on his database project, right here, in the form of a blog post. I have no objections.

But look where he has STORED his bulky database — on the community. And this is what I was referring to. It does not belong here.

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λ James Kanjo
_{Blog | Wikidot Expert | λ and Proud
Web Developer | HTML | CSS | JavaScript}

That is the difference in Web design - split or not

Helmuti_pdorf 13 Jul 2010 05:45

That is exact the question -James!
Why should an (hopefully useful) info for a visitor be stored on a different site?

Only because Pieter has started this spread over with a lot of littel sites?
This is useful in a workgroup or for a specific creative team - they find all related infos and documents on special project related sites.
But for newcomers this is really confusing if they want to know what wikidot is able to do!

I in my oppinion think it was a big mistake to store your applikations on different sites - far away from the commuinity - they can only be found by links or tips.

I was always woundering why you do not create here in the community some pages - showing exact these advantages. Today they are never found by first visitors. Sometimes I ´cannot find them.

There is all over a thinking about Web design - "Never let the visitors think" - means let them nt search too long what they need to know.

If we hide all the goodies on different places - hard to find and always needs tips in postings - a newcomer will never see these issues at his beginnings and will surf away..

And as Rob says - the community was and is a storage of infos some contributors has written. If you do not like it on this place - sorry, but I think you are alone with your oppinion here.
This is a wiki.
Not a book with a lector who decides what is shown and what not.

I see the community site as a collection of "all possible information" about wikidot and its advantages.

If I integrated all of those “helpful systems” on the community site, we would have hundreds of extra pages for people to look through.

What a big chance is lost !
I really ask you why you do not copy/create all these missing (working and finished) "showcases" here for people who are exact searching for this possibilities.

This is a community - you and all others have the rights to do it!

---

Service is my success. My webtips:www.blender.org (Open source), Wikidot-Handbook.

Sie können fragen und mitwirken in der deutschsprachigen » User-Gemeinschaft für WikidotNutzer oder
im deutschen » Wikidot Handbuch ?

Last edited on 13 Jul 2010 05:54 by Helmuti_pdorf + Show more

Re: That is the difference in Web design - split or not

leiger 13 Jul 2010 07:17

I happen to agree with James - but hear me out.

When someone uses the search feature, they want to see relevant pages that they can read, that relate to the problem they are searching for answers to. They do not need nor want to see back-end pages that contain CSS, JavaScript, or Wikidot syntax that makes no sense when it's taken out of scope.

People need to see a project as being a separate entity. If back-end pages appear in search results users will be confused by that. There's a reason why a robots.txt file exists on most web sites on the Internet - it is used to define which pages people should not see in search results.

As this file is not directly editable on Wikidot, we must instead try to keep pages like that to a minimum on the community. Instead, we should create a page (or a few pages) that describe the project and how it works. The actual live example should be hosted elsewhere — and linked to regularly on those pages that are on the community site.

This way:

• Projects are easy to find, even though they're on a different Wikidot site.
• Users see relevant search results that provide the answers they are looking for

---

Shane Smith ★ Website: Wikidot Development & Programming.
STE Wikidot Editor: Windows & Mac OS X. ★ Try it for free!.
I'm also on Twitter, follow me there! ;-)

Re: That is the difference in Web design - split or not

Timothy Foster 13 Jul 2010 12:43

I also happen to agree with James; from an engineering perspective the split method is generally more organized if used correctly.

Projects are entities that are different from the typical Wikidot how to or tip. They are actual applications built with Wikidot syntax that accomplish a certain task, is normally customizable, and can be used by multiple people. Most how tos or tips usually involve little snippets of code that can actually be learned.

However, projects do need to be on the community site for quick and easy navigation for beginners. When I searched "calendar", there was nothing related to the calendar application listed.

So to make the system work,

• Each project should have a how-to detailing mainly how to install it and what it does. The how-to should link to the live example on the project page and not describe how it works. The project site does that.
• The community site needs to collect the links of all of the relevant projects and put them in one spot, like the top bar for instance.
• Each project should have a link to the community site.

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— Blog ~ Life's Handbook ~ Wikidot Design & Development

Re: That is the difference in Web design - split or not

Ed Johnson 13 Jul 2010 13:52

I agree. The key, in my opinion, is to be able to find something via a search. I have often been frustrated trying to find something because I couldn't remember where I saw it. If each "project" had a how-to page, then a search should return some relevant results. Once we get to the "home" page of the project, it really doesn't matter where the rest of the information is located as long as proper links are in place.

It also makes some sense to have large projects located elsewhere if any CSS customization is involved. It would be easier to manage on a site outside the the community.

-Ed

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Free Wikidot Applications · Your Shared Photo Gallery · Your Personal Blog

Re: That is the difference in Web design - split or not

leiger 13 Jul 2010 13:57

How about we add these pages to a new 'project' category, dedicated to user-built Wikidot solutions that surpass the need for a simple "how to" page.

Then we can collect all of these projects on a 'project:_start' page.

• Start page shows the title, a list of contributors, and the page tags
• Each page in the 'project' category has tags attached to it to describe the type of project, and aid searching

---

Shane Smith ★ Website: Wikidot Development & Programming.
STE Wikidot Editor: Windows & Mac OS X. ★ Try it for free!.
I'm also on Twitter, follow me there! ;-)

RobElliott 13 Jul 2010 13:36

That seems a sensible approach.

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Rob Elliott - Strathpeffer, Scotland - Wikidot first line support & community admin team.
Strathview ~ Wikidot-based wikis, websites & intranets and online database development. For community groups, villages, charities, business and government.

projects are not interesting for normal visitors

Helmuti_pdorf 13 Jul 2010 14:41

Projects are easy to find, even though they're on a different Wikidot site

That is a big misunderstanding: I asked my friends and coleguas to have a visit on wikidot - it was surprising for me - they do not use the searchfunction - to much to do!

They want to read what is possible ( the main window is good enough for an overview ) - and than they clicked:

• on handbook ( 50 %) ( link at the bottom) ,
• the community ( 50 % ) and from here
  • in the handbook (german- again 50%) and
  • 40 % on the "Getting Help" in the first position ( the frist available link…! ).

The rest?

• Not on "forum", or activity
• Not on the "Wikidot blog"
• Not on the "Community news"
• Not on the changelog,
• Not on the Community Press

( It was frustrating )
Perhaps You will calculate - there are some % missing… they asked me - where are the demonstrations what is possible in one overview.
I sent them to the "showcases"…. and these infos were gone… there is nothing !

The left wikidot - because they could not find what they are searching only by clicking on links.

They do not want to enter something - or LEAVE the site to another foreign unknown special site.

Thea are normal users who can read blogs, newspapers ans want to build their own family-diary or photo-album or such "private" storages withoiut a special programmable provider.
They are lost on the community site.

Edit:

I forgot- they are not interested in projects - for the first visitors this is an "internal" of wikidot or of a little special group of users..

I mean: we need

• a very good first level entry for first visitors landing here - with a very good tree of information , where we can show and demonstrate what they can do on wikidot ( with REAL templates used and helping information how they can copy & clone this (and where)
  • example(s) of an educational classroom for playing with it
  • example(s) of a personal diary ( blog)
  • example(s) of a project-group -leading documentation
  • example(s) of a Business site - I think this would be not possible in an easy form
  • example of a community ? I am not sure.. zthis should be herre anyway :)
• a very good overview of howto: helping pages for visitors searching a special problem
• a very good overview of possible applikations for VERY good wikidot users…

I mean - the leading thru the site has to follow a learning curve - calculating what the visitors are knowing from wikidot and we can show them on the different level.

---

Service is my success. My webtips:www.blender.org (Open source), Wikidot-Handbook.

Sie können fragen und mitwirken in der deutschsprachigen » User-Gemeinschaft für WikidotNutzer oder
im deutschen » Wikidot Handbuch ?

Last edited on 13 Jul 2010 14:59 by Helmuti_pdorf + Show more

I remember the show-off site idea from James

Steven Heynderickx 13 Jul 2010 18:27

A long time ago, James suggested to make a site that showed everything wikidot can do. http://projects.wikidot.com/thread:60. I thought at the time that that would be a good idea. Now I am a bit frustrated… wikidot shows many marvelous possibilities however many of them "unfinished". And I am a bit sad that development goes so slow.

So for now, I am not upset with Helmuti using this site to explain a project. He uses categories that are not used by other pages… on the other hand could he also use the sandbox… those pages will also exist there for ever.

I think this is a long discussion for … what really? Helmuti using system-recourses? Helmuti cluttering the categories? Helmuti having to defend the fact that he tries to teach wikidot to others… What is the importance of this thread?

Question is… should this discussion be in the category of blog or should it move to the forum?

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Last edited on 13 Jul 2010 18:59 by Steven Heynderickx + Show more

Re: I remember the show-off site idea from James

leiger 13 Jul 2010 22:49

I think this is a long discussion for … what really? … What is the importance of this thread?

I think this thread is great for two reasons:

• It's an ongoing discussion about the structure of the community - a very important discussion topic
• And it's located on the community itself, instead of in the private "community admins forum". The fact that it's here means that anyone can contribute and speak their mind, and what they think about the issue.

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Shane Smith ★ Website: Wikidot Development & Programming.
STE Wikidot Editor: Windows & Mac OS X. ★ Try it for free!.
I'm also on Twitter, follow me there! ;-)

Re: I remember the show-off site idea from James

Steven Heynderickx 14 Jul 2010 07:03

I agree with you on the fact that this thread should be on the community-site. But this thread should be about databases and forms. Let's open a thread on the community-site forum about what can and can't be discussed on the community-site.

Some of you guy's raised the issue that this page with all his back-ends should not be here because of bad search results… I wonder if somebody who is looking for info on dataforms and databases will be happy to find this info.

So what I am saying is… I don't really mind this creative chaos but if somebody is pointing a finger… (s)he should be consequent and look at her/his own activities.

BTW demo.wikidot.com is a good place to store demo's. James is the admin, but the site is not open to edits, JAMES!

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Re: I remember the show-off site idea from James

James Kanjo 14 Jul 2010 09:54

Whoops!

The site is a simple template at the moment… how shall we structure it?

It's on an “Open Membership” policy now, so you can simply join and edit away… thanks for pointing that out!

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λ James Kanjo
_{Blog | Wikidot Expert | λ and Proud
Web Developer | HTML | CSS | JavaScript}

I moved it to our "Community-Playground"

Helmuti_pdorf 19 Jul 2010 16:50

on Community-playground for demonstration and explaination and to hold this site more clean from showcases and demonstrations.

Every visitor can test (create new entries, EDIT them) and evaluate & comment the database!

---

Service is my success. My webtips:www.blender.org (Open source), Wikidot-Handbook.

Sie können fragen und mitwirken in der deutschsprachigen » User-Gemeinschaft für WikidotNutzer oder
im deutschen » Wikidot Handbuch ?

Last edited on 19 Jul 2010 17:44 by Helmuti_pdorf + Show more